Aug 302005
 

Sometimes, I guess out of boredom, I decide to go a few rounds with someone pimping their glyconutrients. I do not post personal emails I get, but Unsolicited Commercial Email doesn’t get that protection. Maybe I should also do my own Captain Kirk vs. Nigerian 419 Scam sometime! 😉 Comments in red.


From: Lee Zelina
Subject: Hi Erik

Hi Erik,

Have you tried Glyconutrients for your MS? I have been educating myself about these essential sugars for over a year. I highly recommend that you get the info and give them a try. I could give you a lot of info and get you in contact with someone who could answer specific questions and offer recommendations. I have personally seen significant improvements in the health of several of my friends and even my dog after taking the products.

Regards,
Lee
(Does he really give his dog these very expensive pills, or is there a new product line that I am unaware of? Multiple Sclerosis and dog health are pretty similar so I can see why maybe he is a little confused. On a plus side he did spell my name right which some of them cannot seem to pull off.)


From: Erik

No:
http://blog.thesmithlife.com/?p=338

(I really thought he would just go away, or at least this was fair warning I am not buying your stuff. My darn optimism 😉


From: Lee Zelina

Dear Erik,

I did not realize that you had already heard about Glyconutrients. I was doing a search on another topic and found some info on you. You need to do what is right for you. I don’t understand why you would not research it yourself and give it a try. What do you have to loose. I am currently sponsoring a little boy with a brain tumor. Radiation nearly killed him and the Dr’s put him on hospice as a result. He has been on Ambrotose and Phytaloe for 6 weeks and is doing much better. He is steadily regaining function. His parents are overjoyed. I am getting no financial gain from this! I am paying for the child’s products b/c the family has minimal financial means and it is something I felt moved to do. You can bet that the hospital made $1000’s of dollars administering radiation to the little guys brain with no one questioning that. With the amount of products he is taking-it would probably cost the parents $160 a month. Not a significant cost.

I have a friend whose sister had MS. She took the Mannatech products and is back to normal. It was a blessing for both her and her small children. She is on small maintenance doses now. I can get her number for you if you would like to talk to her.

Sincerely,
Lee

(Gotta love the appeal to my sister’s cousin’s friend’s 3rd counsin has MS and now is taking Abrotose and is feeling so much better. Of course that could have just been an exacerbation that she got over, but whatever. I love the anonymous personal accounts science.)


From: Erik

It’s a little difficult to do research on a sugar pill. I’ve looked and there are no peer-reviewed articles on glyconutrients. There is substantial research into sugar pill treatments, though that is typically called the placebo effect. Ambrotose certainly sells a pretty expensive item for the placebo effect, which is really its best case scenario. Plus, would I really gain a placebo effect from a sugar pill that I don’t think will work?!

(Can you argue logic with someone like this? 😉


From: Lee Zelina

Were you aware that the Ambrotose product was recently granted a patent? Mannatech also submitted info to the FDA regarding research on the benefits of ImmunoStart. Drug companies are the only ones usually allowed to make claims regarding products that can treat disease. After reviewing the info the FDA gave approval for Mannatech to make it’s claims regarding ImmunoStart. It is quite an accomplishment. I will forward these e-mails.

The “Wellness Industry” is growing every year because people are getting educated and realize that drugs only mask symptoms. They do not cure the underlying problem that is causing the disease. Over time drugs create numerous negative side effects as well.

I lost my mother to cancer 2 1/2 years ago. She had been on FDA approved HRT (hormone replacement therapy) for years. I wish I would have known about the Mannatech products years ago. I watched her suffer as she underwent surgery, chemo, and radiation. Another friend had complications after years of using VIOXX and has heart damage as a result. He is a doctor and can barely work. He is sueing the drug company. I also work as a Speech Therapist in a nursing home and over the last 15 years I have seen patterns that are repeated time and time again (involving drugs). I am not saying that drugs are never needed. I am just saying that they are not the answer to curing the underlying issues and the side effects may be worse than the actual disease.

I could not help my mom but I am thankful that I have been able to help others. That is my motivation.

Sincerely,
Lee

(He did send some emails that appeared to come right from Mannatech. They seemed like political talking points as you pimp your candidate. 😉


From: Erik

Anyone can get a patent for anything, it doesn’t prove the product is worth anything – just that no one has gotten a patent for it previously.

Assuming immunostart does as you say, which I consider questionable, that would be the exact opposite of what I need. Bolstering the immune system when you have an autoimmune disease has repeatedly proven to be catastrophic. All current treatments for MS work by inhibiting the immune response in one way or another.

(I thought about telling him I was thinking about getting a patent for my unique blend of piss and vinegar, but stopped short. I certainly seem full of it lately! 😉


From: Lee Zelina

Do you question all of the drugs and treatment your Dr. recommends as well? Are you getting satisfactory results? Are you getting better? You are going to believe whatever you like. I am not trying to convince you. I was trying to give you good info that you might not have heard to enable you make an educated decision. I could understand your attitude if you had tried it and you had no benefit from it. I have seen too many good things as a result of it’s use to be closed minded and negative. I wish you the very best!

Lee

(A distinct lack of “regards” or “sincerely” for his signature. I removed mine for the blog posting, but they were just my automatic signature. I guess I win since he got frustrated! 😉


From: Erik

Yes, I do question what the doctor prescribes. Fortunately, those drugs are well documented and can be researched within reputable journals.

The “use and see if it works for you” is not acceptable, and certainly not at the cost of that “drug”, and is not even remotely scientific. Refer back to placebo effect below.

(Well this was fun, now I just have to wait until the next one comes along. I am sure it won’t take too long! Next time I am going to play along for a while and see how that goes! 😉

  16 Responses to “So this is how I spend my time!”

  1. I have a patent on reducing hangovers with vitamin C. Any ninny (for those English blokes who just won’t go away and leave their real name to boot)myself included, can get a patent. Whether it is INDEED backed by real research is the question here folks. NOT ONE MENTION OF RESEARCH. People with MS and who are in serious pain don’t have the time to sit and “listen” to other people’s ranting about experimental supplements. They need facts, facts, facts and will go to the ends of the earth when given them. Erik and his lovely girl Brandy, you both have done an excellent job at being level headed, diffusing, and saying “give me some facts”. To those of you who continue to insult them and push YOUR views on them, shame on you. Give them what they asked for and maybe they will be more receptive, but I doubt insulting them will make them want to run right out and be on your wagon…

  2. I was thinking about reducing my handovers with more alcohol – I guess each to their own! 😉

    He did pretty well, much better than some of the others. Maybe I should have pushed him a little harder?

  3. Alas the saga continues:
    ************
    From: Lee

    Let me guess, you are an engineer or a computer programmer? You sound exactly like my husband. I have proven his beliefs WRONG time and time again. Go ahead an disregard all of the real life examples of people that I personally know if you like. Believe whatever you want to and do whatever you feel is the best for you. All I can tell you is that I have seen many of my friends and their friends and acquaintenances get huge benefits from glyconutrients. Benefits that they had not gotten from drugs. A 4 year old boy who is considered brain dead from MRI results doesn’t have a clue what the “placebo effect” is and he is doing great. Quit being so analytical and try to have some belief and faith in mankind and what I am telling you (along with many others from the sound of it). Believe me, if I got the products for you I would not be taking an expensive vacation on the $ I’d be earning!!! You cannot say that about the drug companies and the kick backs the Dr’s get.

    There are always 2 sides to everything and I try to not be biased when getting info. As far as drug info being “well documented” they can scew the info to their benefit. I have had this conversation with my Dr. friend who is sueing the makers of VIOXX. You will have to come up with a much better arguement than that.

    I did not contact you to debate our beliefs. I have much better things to do with my time than argue with you over e-mail. If you would like to talk to a very knowledgeable consultant that I know you can let me know and I will make arrangements for you to speak with her. Otherwise, I wish you all the best. It sounds like you have it all figured out and I am sure you will be cured soon.

    Lee
    ***********
    From: Erik

    Give me a break. You guys don’t even have “info to screw to your benefit” but appeal to these unverifiable personal stories.

    So what if you’ve proven your husband wrong. I don’t get the point? I’m not saying glyconutrients are definitely snake oil; but they certainly look like, smell like, and act like snake oil. Without anything else to go on why should I believe differently? -because some UCE comes through and I should believe everything they have to say – or take it on “faith.” Sorry, but I didn’t fall off the turnip truck the other day – and blind faith isn’t my cup of tea – I prefer a reasoned faith.

    Show me a reputable study that has appeared in a journal, but alas we all know that doesn’t exist and probably never will. 😉

  4. P.S. Let me fuel the fire on this one. I hear on blind faith vs. reasoned faith. Research people, research. MSers (if you will) don’t have TIME or MENTAL resources to just believe there 3rd uncles, sisters, boyfriend Ed had a miracle.

    You really want them to simmer?? Tell them God is an imaginary friend for grown ups. LOL.

  5. Oh Erik, Erik, Erik! Haven’t you had enough of the Glyco talk for a year now!? LOL. Hilarious. I just don’t get that people who have money to gain from promoting it, think that people like you (or I) would want to actually give our imune systems a “boost”? Do they know ANYTHING about how MS works in our bodies? And I couldn’t agree more with Michelle… why are these people insisting on pushing *their* opinion of what will work for your body? Ugh.

  6. Michelle,
    I wouldn’t tell them God is an imaginary friend, because I don’t even remotely believe that. Though I certainly have plenty of reason for the faith I have!

  7. Kim,
    Yeah, maybe I have. But it was a fun diversion while it lasted. It ended on a nice note too, so that is good. I’ll post the final installment.

  8. The final installments 😉
    *********
    From Lee:

    Let me guess, you are an engineer or a computer programmer? You sound exactly like my husband. I have proven his beliefs WRONG time and time again. Go ahead an disregard all of the real life examples of people that I personally know if you like. Believe whatever you want to and do whatever you feel is the best for you. All I can tell you is that I have seen many of my friends and their friends and acquaintenances get huge benefits from glyconutrients. Benefits that they had not gotten from drugs. A 4 year old boy who is considered brain dead from MRI results doesn’t have a clue what the “placebo effect” is and he is doing great. Quit being so analytical and try to have some belief and faith in mankind and what I am telling you (along with many others from the sound of it). Believe me, if I got the products for you I would not be taking an expensive vacation on the $ I’d be earning!!! You cannot say that about the drug companies and the kick backs the Dr’s get.

    There are always 2 sides to everything and I try to not be biased when getting info. As far as drug info being “well documented” they can scew the info to their benefit. I have had this conversation with my Dr. friend who is sueing the makers of VIOXX. You will have to come up with a much better arguement than that.

    I did not contact you to debate our beliefs. I have much better things to do with my time than argue with you over e-mail. If you would like to talk to a very knowledgeable consultant that I know you can let me know and I will make arrangements for you to speak with her. Otherwise, I wish you all the best. It sounds like you have it all figured out and I am sure you will be cured soon.

    **********
    From: Erik

    Give me a break. You guys don’t even have “info to screw to your benefit” but appeal to these unverifiable personal stories.

    So what if you’ve proven your husband wrong. I don’t get the point? I’m not saying glyconutrients are definitely snake oil; but they certainly look like, smell like, and act like snake oil. Without anything else to go on why should I believe differently? -because some UCE comes through and I should believe everything they have to say – or take it on “faith.” Sorry, but I didn’t fall off the turnip truck the other day – and blind faith isn’t my cup of tea – I prefer a reasoned faith.

    Show me a reputable study that has appeared in a journal, but alas we all know that doesn’t exist and probably never will. 😉

    ***************
    From: Lee

    Give me a break. So you are an engineer or a computer programmer. I
    knew it!! I don’t know what you mean by “I don’t get the point”. How
    can I make it any more clear. When a friend of mine which I speak to
    weekly reported having a slew of health issues that her Dr.
    atttributed to age I told her about the products. She is only 54 for
    heavens sake. Age is an easy “out” when dr’s do not know what the
    heck is wrong with someone. She started taking the products and has
    seen great results. She is not interested in selling the products she
    just wanted to feel better and she finally does. You don’t have to be
    a genius to see what the products for a friend. THAT IS THE POINT-she
    got huge benefits. She feels good. Sorry if that isn’t good enough
    for you.

    Are you happy with your current health status? How many drugs are you
    taking? What results are you getting? At what stage is your disease?
    Why don’t you answer any of my questions for a change.

    go to http://www.glycoscience.org (it is a site we send Dr’s too).

    Check out “Harper’s Biochemistry” (used as a Dr’s desk
    reference-Glyconutrients is in it).

    *************
    From: Erik

    I am a SysAdmin so what? Does everyone else let their emotional
    passions rule their life. Am I defective to want a rational reason for
    something – or is that unique to SysAdmins? Maybe everyone else (other
    than an “engineer or a computer programmer”) also trusts those Nigerian
    419 scams or private parts enlargement they get in the inbox, and that
    is why they keep coming. Hmmm, I bet glyconutrients will also make me
    rich and enlarge my anatomy at the same time too right? 😉

    Placebo effect maybe? 😉

    I am happy with my health status, I take one drug, and I am at the RRMS
    “stage”; thanks for asking! 😉

    Yes, I’ve been over the “glycoscience” with some of your predecessors.
    A company sponsored site is not incredibly trustworthy, especially one
    that is dominated by basically only 2 sources and 1 of which is
    definitely company owned. Furthermore, science would seem to indicate
    scientific method, but that doesn’t seem to come into play with this
    stuff. So my guess is this is more market speak. 😉

    Furthermore, “glyconutrients” existing in a biology textbook does not
    demonstrate a lack thereof in people with a disease (MS) nor has it ever
    been demonstrated that there is a lack of these in the body at all.
    Furthermore, it has not been demonstrated that Ambrotose, or any other
    product, puts these sugars back in. But we have personal success
    stories and I’m sure that means something. Of course maybe Mars,
    Jupiter, or the Moon is better aligned with them for their birth month –
    but alas that is digressing a little! 😉

    I’m surprised you keep writing, I am certainly pretty close to a lost
    cause for glyconutrients. 😉

    **************
    From: Lee

    I have nothing against analytical people. It is a much needed trait in this world! At times, I wish I was more analytical. I do a lot of reading and research but I also go with my gut as well. I believe that both personality types are important. As far as the anatomy enlargement products that are out there-I agree with you and don’t pay much attention to it.

    You may think I am foolish for believing what I do and that is alright. However, I know what I know and believe what I have seen. I am thankful that a few of my friends,a few acquaintenances, and even my 12 year old Schnoodle (my dog that was diagnosed with liver failure over a year ago) believed enough to give it a try and feel better. That is all the proof I need.

    I wish you the very best. It sounds like things are going Ok for you. It has been nice chatting with you.

    Sincerely,
    Lee

    *************
    From: Erik

    Best of luck!

  9. Michelle and Kim! Thanks so much for the kind comments. 🙂 I don’t know why these people expect us ot believe what they say as if it were the absolute truth and pay for expensive sugar pills. As I read the notes I kept thinking she really, really, really doesn’t get it. Oh well. Michelle, I will say that Erik and I believe in God, but have a very reasoned faith. I believe no one, including God, would ask us to believe based on nothing. 😉

    Lee, thank you for giving Erik an outlet for his angst. He was in the best mood last night! 🙂

  10. I admire both of you, you guys rock and Kim I’m with you. As for God: He is my imaginary friend that I can’t see and if I believe he exists, he does!!! He gets me through as well. We’re actually on a first name basis, LOL. Most people who are quick to judge and not open to interpretation, such as Mr. & Mrs. Glyconutrient Miracle In The Flesh, would have taken that completely the wrong way and I’m sure flown off the handle, but hey! they probably experts on that, too!

  11. What’s up with this Lee character! Seriously, enough already with the glyconutrient talk. Does Lee know anything about MS? By the looks of the conversation thread he knows nil.

    My wife have been approached more than once with experimental and/or natural remedies. We’re more than happy to listen to what people have to say IF (like Erik said) research has been invested in a particular supplement/product.

    Way to keep your cool Erik; it’s hard sometimes when someone “knows” what’s best for you.

    Sincerely,
    Adam

  12. I guess you got to had it to him for his repeated efforts. But oh my gush sometimes think people have just lost their minds.
    http://www.pseudarthrosis.com
    Alex

  13. Go to http://www.scholar.google.com (mostly a non-ad site for RESEARCH ONLY – at least that is the design and a RARE 1 or 2 sneaky folks code their stuff to appear in this site – but most are research) and enter ‘multiple sclerosis glycoproteins’ and get Results 2,990 for multiple sclerosis glycoproteins.

    When looking at those results, you will begin to see how important glycoproteins are in relation to MS and will see that it is quite often that steps in the glycosylation process are actually damaging these sugary coatings of the myelin.

    You absolutely cannot refute that people with MS have problems with their glycoproteins.

    So keep watching for the research that TAKES SIGNIFICIANT time to prove that MS can be positively benefitted by glyconutrients because of the glyconutrients ability to help repair those damaged areas. If the immune system is attacking those glycoproteins, the glyconutrients will help replenish them. Just as if someone has been eating Mexican food that is dehydrating them, extra water is wanted by the body.

    It DOES help! It’s nutritional not medicinal. That’s the number 1 issue you haven’t grasped. You’re NEVER going to see drug papers on nutrients. NEVER. SO if you want to hang onto that as your excuse for never trying them, you’ll be able to do it until your death bed. I don’t know exactly what has turned you off by the people who have written you but it’s obvious you’ve not looked at this in the way that a local pediatric neurologist has looked at them. He is working with a couple of MS patients (not pediatric actually) and is collecting data to publish a paper in relationship to glyconutrients and their MS. It’s certainly not an overnight miracle cure but the nutrients do marvelous things to help FEED the MS body so that quality of life is greatly improved. Also, general immune quality is greatly improved (as glycoproteins play the most important task of communication during immune processes) and the number of drugs being taken by these MS patients has dropped.

    From what I have seen of MS, it’s terrible. Some sufferers are struggling more than others. I don’t know why some are seeing positive results with glyconutrients faster than others but everyone is seeing SOME positive changes.

    Glycoscience.org….Did you not read about the awards it has received (and is sharing very impressive company with many of your favorite drug and medical agencies)? It has been awarded for showing non-biased, legitimate, trust-worthy research. Just because they are PIONEERING (therefore, they are doing most of the work that has been published) doesn’t mean they are wrong.

    You claim to be researching and open-minded but you are going at it with a VERY heavily-shaded bias towards the drug-paradigm. And if you think medical journals are not published by people who stand to gain mucho amounts of money from the drug companies, you are wearing blinders, my friend.

    I don’t want to sell glyconutrients to you. I just don’t like seeing someone without some of the information I have presented here. It’s certainly not everything there is to know but it’s more and hopefully it will pique your interest.

    I truly do hope you find an answer that makes you happy. I know that the path to truth is a narrow road and very few take it. I am not expected to make everyone believe but I am held responsible for speaking the truth.

    As any athlete knows, when you’re winning, you can stick with your gameplan. But if you’re NOT winning, a re-evaluation and NEW gameplan is in order.

  14. There are studies, case studies, & pilot studies at http://www.glycoscience.org which won awards for un-biased & truthful information. One of the authors of Harper’s Biochemistry Medical Textbook, Robert K Murray MD, PhD, & the past President of the Royal Society of Medicine, wouldn’t put their reputations on the line by joining GlycScience’s “Editorial Board” if the science of glycobiology wasn’t true. I’ve heard doctors say on international calls apologize to the people listening in w/over 10,000 lines, that they didn’t take glyconutrients seriously.
    You might hear researchers & doctors interviews Saturdays at noon EST at http://www.glycoradio.com
    It’s my passion to help people since my terribly painful & scary health problems reverserved when I started taking glycos. It took a little over 2 years but I now can get up in the morning w/out putting my knees on the floor first.
    “The Healing Power of 8 Sugars” is a great book, as is “Science or Miracle” & “How to Survive on a Toxic Planet.” Also there is “The IMportant of Stem Cells” & “The Cancer Video” by Dr. Reg. McDaniel.
    http://www.maryrushing.com
    The biggest ones who love glycos usually were the ones who said ‘poo poo’ at first, & even saying “Why didn’t someone tell me about this” after going to MannaFest in Texas – statment by Jeff Allen.

  15. I was just researching this, as I have terminal lupus. What came up first on Google was a letter from the FDA stating that ImmunoSTART is falsely claiming to have the properties of a drug. It should quit claiming it’s healing properties the way it does.

    There is nothing about it being approved. Only drugs can be approved. Not supplements.

    I agree about not stimulating the immune system in A-I diseases. I just went through a treatment that virtually destroyed my immune system. That was the goal, not stimulating it.

    Heck, I’m not even supposed to take echinacea.

  16. Sue,
    I have a pretty low opinion of Mannatech. They have long track record of some “questionable” marketing practices. Some of which is certainly the local rep doing anything to sell their stuff, and earn a commission.

    Sorry for the Lupus. I hope things go better for you!

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